puppy class frustration

[melissap]

Lying down, is a very "submissive pose" for a dog to take. Some are more comfortable with this than others 

[lilacocelot]

Thank you all for sharing your experiences and comments. Very helpful. I will keep going to the classes, knowing that it is a good intro to his puppyhood socialization. I was getting frustrated with the classes... Harley being 'the bad boy in class' who barked at the other puppies, not into the 30-50 reps that the trainer said to do- like come on, he knows Sit and Down, he is not going to want to do that many of 'em!
(He actually learns the tricks or commands very quickly.)
Then when he is 'over it', he starts getting worked up and nippy and acting like he wants out of the room. The trainer calls him 'active'.
I also question the amount of so many 'treats' that are constantly fed to him during the class, to 'behave' or to distract him.
Anyways, will try and see this puppy class out and keep looking for another trainer for the next step of training.

Loni

[heiditr]

We are now training our 4th ridgeback, and we use puppy training class as 1. social training (yes, we can be around other dogs, be on a leash and not play) 2. simple commands as sit and down. And I never try to train with her before she has calmed down and she is paying attention to me. Also, during the lesson, if she starts to lose attention, we just find a quiet place to sit for a few minutes or she spends a few minutes in the car. I have never had a training class without at least two timeouts. And I decide when it is time to take the timeouts, not the instructor. I have had classes where all we did was to sit and watch.

Nia is now 6 months, she knows a lot of commands and offer them willingly. She is so funny when she comes over and goes through her "motions" just to see if she can get us to give her a treat. We have used a clicker this time, and she really gets the idea and when she understands that she has a 5 min lesson she starts wagging her tail and is really happy.

For us, the most important command is to call her back when she is off leash. Nia is probably the most independent ridgeback we have had, so positive reward is the only thing that works. We use different commands when we call her back. "Komme" is used as just come here and get a treat. "Plass" is used when she is supposed to come and stand/sit on my left side. Whistling is the same as "komme". I loose my voice every now and then, so whistling is ok. Later we will start only hand signals as commands, now we just put them on top of the commands we have  learned her. Another command worth learning is "Frii" or free in English This is a positive command, a reward for the dog. like he can think "Yes! I did the right thing, now I can run and play some more! Yeah!"

I believe that ridgebacks are quick learners, and repetition doesn't bring out the best in them. Ridgebacks can think for themselves, and if you give a command that makes no sense in the dogs mind, he'll just play deaf.

A lesson I had to learn was to quit training at the correct moment. If your dog does a command correctly, it is so tempting to try it again, and again... resulting in instant deafness.

Good luck with your puppy. It is hard and frustrating work, but worth it.

Heidi

[melissap]

Excellent post and great advice Heidi.

Loni, good for you for making the committment. RR's are very food motivated so that is not a bad thing  if the treat is given at the proper time. As your pup matures, the treats will lessen and be given more so "on point" for the behavior you are asking for. Right now, you are looking to make baby steps and keep your pup focused on you and building a strong bond.

Repetition is important - but break it up a bit. I like Heidi's suggestion of taking a break if it gets boreing for your dog.

I always had good luck integrating short spirts of training at home in between other normal day to day activities and always remember to make it fun for you and your pup!

Melissa

[georgejr]

I love the lab comment!  Our class consisted of 2 golden retrievers, 2 black labs, a bulldog and an australian shepherd along with our ridgie.  Let's just say that while everyone else was practicing "sit, down, sit" our puppy was still doing sit!  She NEVER listened in the class but at home she was better.  The labs and everyone else was so eager to please while Ripley was not super easy.  We had read they're not easy dogs to train, stubborn not stupid.  Now at 6 months, we're firm but she definatly responds better to asking then telling.  My husband laughs (or other guests that try it) because in a stern voice he'll say a command and she ignores him.  I say "say it nicely" and BAM she does it.  It's pretty funny.  She does however need a good stern tone once in a while! 
By the end of the 8 weeks, we were done with puppy class.  We almost flipped a coin to see who had to go.  I agree with puppy class is for you to learn and at home is where you train.  Good luck!

who is training who?

[Loki]

Hi Steve, me again!!!
I see many people responded and gave you a lot of good advice. I was thinking about your dilemma about the trainer last night (yeah, I had nothing better to do at 4 am when I could not sleep) and decided to share my experience with Loki's trainers (note the plural) over the past 3 years. After you read this you will most likely conclude that I am "insane" and kind of stupid ... I already think that about myself 

Loki's first trainer used all positive reinforcement techniques for treating dog aggression.Thank goodness for that because no harm was done and while Loki did not progress he did not regress either. After a few months she went on a mat-leave. So no progress and Loki still reacted aggressively towards new dogs. First lesson learned from working with the first trainer: Following the text book examples without real life experiences is not very productive!!! This lesson was about CDN$1,000,00 over the 4 month period.

Status-quo was not acceptable to us so we we decided to call in the second trainer. We worked with her when we got our puppy mastiff-mix. We remembered she used positive reinforcement techniques with our puppy and she was well known and respected and she was known for being successful with dog-to-dog aggression. She suggested we board Loki for 4 weeks with her. We trusted her and we followed her advice. In those 4 weeks there was not a day I did not miss Loki and I could not stop thinking we made a mistake by giving him to her instead of working with her and Loki in our house. 4 weeks later Loki was back - with a prong collar, a perfect heel command and the advice to "keep him away from other dogs because our dog Darko should be more than enough for Loki to play with!!!!" So, the heel command lasted only as long as the prong collar was on Loki and guess what. I could not use the prong collar. I walked Loki on it for one day and the first time I had to correct him the way the trainer showed me and I heard him yelp it broke my heart. I took the collar off and threw it away. For those of you reading this, please do not take the comment about the prong collar the wrong way if you are using it on your dog. If correctly used this collar can be quited effective. I just could not use it because I tried the "tug" correction on my own skin and I did not like it. So we all follow our own believes and gut-feelings. 2nd lesson learned: Do not give your dog away and do not follow advice with which you are not comfortable. The price tag CDN 2,000. Loki was still lunging towards unknown dogs.

The third trainer (now we are almost 1 year into dealing with the dog aggression) is the same trainer that Carol mentioned; Loki and Trouble go to his class together this month. By now you know that Jon uses the positive reinforcement techniques but with an instructive reprimand (change in the tone of the voice). He worked with us for about a year and he managed to get Loki to accept meeting new dogs but Loki was not consistent in his progress. Huskies and German Shepherds remained the biggest challenge. We have also noticed that Loki responded to him much better than to us - even though we would go for the training walks together. When Jon was handling Loki on those walk Loki was "the perfect dog". When I was out with him - oh well, you can just imagine. So the problem was with me and my husband and all the wrong signals we were sending to Loki i.e. our body would tense and I would pull the leash etc.. Eventually we stopped waisting Jon's time and I started to read the books about dog psychology and training; I am still reading like mad. The third lesson learned: I had to learn how to work with my dog.
After about 10 months of just simply "managing" Loki and keeping him away from other dogs I was ready to try again.
The fourth trainer started to work with us in Dec. 2009. She developed a very structured and well thought out approach to Loki's issues. It was her idea to get Loki ready to start attending classes with other dogs. But before he could go into a class Loki had to learn how to manage his anxiety which was apparent but we all missed it!!!! So the root cause of Loki's fear was his anxiety about anything new, including dogs.
Now we are attending her classes and Jon's classes. These two trainers have different styles (not techniques) and their styles combined are finally producing very positive results. The key in producing these positive results is that while the trainers are guiding me and showing me how to train, I am the one working with Loki. Loki and I are learning together and that is also allowing us to trust each other.

I was the most comfortable following Jon's style but I also learned that the fourth trainer's style was actually giving me more structured approach which I needed (more than Loki :-).

So this is a very long story (sorry about that everyone) but hope it illustrates how important it is that we learn from the trainers and we work with our dogs. On top of that, in my experience it was absolutely critical that I was comfortable with what I was doing. One more thing that Jon thought me and it was very important for me and Loki: "do not be afraid to try different things until you find something that works for your dog but always be kind to your dog". So do not spend thousands of dollars like us - find a good trainer and work with Safi; it will pay off in many ways.
Betsa

[1st5]

We decided to do the training ourselves. Socialization is very important...but I don't like the idea of treat based training. When I want the dog to do something I don't want the dog expecting to be doing it for food, I want the dog to do it because I said so. So I socialize Jess with friends and family and we just started going to the dog park to socialize with other dogs and people. It works for us. I pretty much follow Milan's training, but without treats for reinforcement. Brodie was rehabilitated using that system and Jess is responding very well now. I just spent five minutes with her out on the sidewalk doing leash training for the walk and she just soaked it up.
As far as positive rewards...they get them. Lots of face and neck scratches and massage and attention! And when I'm cooking venison or wild pig they get a little love in the dinner bowl with their kibble.