Author Topic: What are your thoughts on Spinabifida?  (Read 263 times)

Offline Daneo

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What are your thoughts on Spinabifida?
« on: May 31, 2010, 06:51 PM »
Just watched this video here (not sure if this is the right place to put this nor have i found it in another thread?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA_DOkZRk7Q&feature=related

I my self am getting a ridgeback puppy in 5 weeks ( linked picture bellow) and have grown up with these dogs around me all my childhood.
I never new what caused the ridge before but I'm quite startled. I just wanted to ask your onions of this video and/or if there is any info that was left out.

I read the youtube comments but stopped after there was to much bickering going on.

I don't wish to offend, I just want a healthy conversation  ;D





Offline CA in TO

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Re: What are your thoughts on Spinabifida?
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2010, 06:59 PM »
That video is from the British show called "Pedigree Dogs Exposed". If you enter the name of the show (with the quotes) in the search box, you will get 5 threads from this board dedicated to our members' discussions of the show.
Is there a particular aspect of the video that you are especially wanting to discuss?
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Offline Daneo

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Re: What are your thoughts on Spinabifida?
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2010, 08:24 PM »
I have tried to use the search bar on this forum with no luck? maybe I'm just useless. BUT i did find a post on another forum about the show.
As they say there are two sides to each story and i just wanted to hear the other side  :)

One thing though, the video says it is Spinabifida but this post does not? which one do people hear believe is true?


http://forum.purseblog.com/animalicious/omg-i-am-watching-crying-pedigree-dogs-exposed-536355.html

"This is going to be long!! But, I'm happy to share! I can only speak to the Ridgeback portion, though, and the overall dog show world I've experienced.
For full discloser, I'm very active in my breed, and our dog does participate in conformation, or "dog shows" and various sports.

1-Ridgeless puppies are killed. My experience with breed has been that ridgeless dogs are not killed, but immediately neutered and sold as pet dogs. But, they didn't put the breeders that say THAT in the show. I've never known or heard of any breeder to kill a pup. That said, couple things: Ridgeless Ridgebacks are, by definition, not Ridgebacks. So, that's a fundamental problem. They are not wanted and as a result, they look like hound-pitbull mixes and are picked up by rescues as such. From there, they are often put to sleep as potentially dangerous dogs, or end up as bait dogs in dog fighting rings.

That said, it does happen, apparently. (Not common in the US and less than 1% worldwide). As one breeder puts it:

Quote:
The fate of a ridgeless dog is far less than certain if the first and original owner does not act responsibly, and every breeder knows that you can’t always trust owners to act responsibly. So, as a breeder, if you know that a certain percentage of your ridgeless puppies are going to end up living horrible lives of pain and confusion and loneliness and then be put to death, even if it’s only one percent, you have a decision to make. You can send them out there, trying hard not to think about that one percent, or you can make sure that their lives are short and painless and they never know fear or hunger or fighting. It is an individual decision that no breeder makes lightly. We LOVE our puppies. We ADORE our dogs. Every single time we lose one it is a personal tragedy. So while I may have certain convictions about what I would do, I have a great deal of sympathy for those who make a decision that is different
2-The show said the Ridge on the Ridgeback is a form of spina bifida and genetic fault from inbreeding. THIS IS AN OUTRIGHT LIE. It's hair, that's all. It's a long cowlick. So, the show calling that in and of itself a genetic fault is just lying.

3-The BBC documentary said that Dermoid Sinus (a genetic fault in Ridgebacks) was only found in ridged dogs, but the breeders continue to breed ridged dogs, therefore spreading this genetic defect. Not true at all. Dermoid Sinus is in NO WAY RELATED to the ridge, and ridgeless Rhodesians are just as likely to get this. Also, responsible breeders are actively fighting dermoid sinus (which can be easily removed by the way) by not breeding dogs with it.

So, just on those three things alone, I seriously question the credibility of the show. They flat out LIED on the things related to my dog, so who knows what else was fabricated to make "their point?" I resent them calling my dog a "mutant" when he can absolutely perform the job for which he was bred and designed to do.

__________________________________________________ ___________

Also, the idea of dog shows is not a beauty pageant. It is to evaluate the dogs based on their function. If you're at a dog show, no one is talking about how pretty the dogs are, but are looking at things like structure, reach and drive, etc. For example, in Ridgebacks -- which were bred to hunt lions, dogs too long in the loin couldn't corner well, and were poor hunters as a result. So the breeders today breed dogs that are ideally suited for what they were originally meant to do -- and most test this theory by participating in performance sports.

My belief is Pedigree indicates what the animal should be…conformation indicates what the animal appears to be…performance indicates what the animal actually is…….

To some other points from that show....such as how the dogs have changed over time. Well, yeah, so have people. Our average height has grown, too, over the course of 200 years. But aside from that, there were some more fundamentals half-truths in that.

The pictures the documentary uses to supposedly “expose” the changes in purebred dogs are totally false. You cannot make statements about a dog based on a photo of a POOR EXAMPLE of the breed! I can go find you a poorly bred long-legged Basset right now in 2008; doesn’t mean that the breed has changed. Also, the bulldog they say is the historic one absolutely isn’t. It's a pit bull dog, not the bull-baiting dog. The skull they used to illustrate the Bulldog skull changes was a grossly malformed one -- not that of a normal moderate Bulldog. Using extremes to validate their points is unethical to me. And they did that repeatedly.

NOW, that all said:

Are there irresponsible breeders out there? Hell yes. And anyone who has bought a dog from a pet store, newspaper clipping, friend, from a sign or someone with a litter in a box in front of WalMart is guilty to contributing to that. And, here's the kicker: If you are buying a pure bred dog and not researching your breeder and/or talking to your national breed club first, you are contributing to the problem.

People need to research their breeder just as much--if not more than their breed. This is the way to get rid of crappy breeders and backyard breeders. And unfortunately, people don't do that.

Responsible breeders make NO MONEY from breeding. In fact, breeding healthy, quality dogs is a money-losing venture for most. Finding and evaluating good homes takes time and energy (for example, I had to take a 6 page questionnaire and undergo interviews before my breeder would give me a puppy.) Food, vet bills, health testing, traveling to shows, performance events, obedience classes, etc all costs money. The show made it seem like breeders just want ribbons and accolades, and the reality it, it's not true.

PHEW, I think I'm done!!!

Did I find parts of this show disturbing? Yes. Do I think part were true? Absolutely? Was this a fair and accurate representation of the world of pure bred dogs and conformation events? HELL NO."

Offline Keeper

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Re: What are your thoughts on Spinabifida?
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2010, 09:03 PM »
You will not have access to the entire forum until you have made the required number of posts.
Your question is interesting and perhaps long term breeders would like to comment on it. 

The two sites you included are also interesting and the dialog is relatively thought provoking. 
Dermoid more closely resembles Spinabifida in humans than a Ridgeless Ridgeback.

There are a good percentage of Ridgeback Breeders who claim that if you have Ridgeless you will never have Dermoid.  My over all breeding experience: 1 Dermoid - 5 Ridgeless. 

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Offline caro

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Re: What are your thoughts on Spinabifida?
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2010, 10:26 AM »
You have brought up some interesting points. 

First, the part about the Ridgeback was subsequently refuted by the RR Club of GB and the Kennel Club was invited to the World Congress in Ireland where the lady who has been studying the dermoid for many years was lecturing.  They were given the proverbial earful and subsequently a retraction was published by the BBC - of course in small print hidden in the pages of the news.

Second, Dermoids appear in other breeds and also in Ridgeless Ridgebacks.  So there doesn't seem to be a connection with the ridge per se, but some think it may have something to do with the crowns or swirls of hair that some dogs have.  Even Golden Retrievers have been known to have them.

I think the connection to spinabifida was made some years ago when there was an Australian study about the use of folic acid as a prevention to the occurrence of dermoid sinus.  Folic acid is known to help prevent spinabifida in humans, and the connection has been made because it is thought to help prevent dermoids.  Personally, I am not convinced.  I gave folic acid before one litter and got two dermoids.  I didn't before the second litter from the same bitch and got none.  So I am not a believer.  But having said that I don't believe it can do any harm.

In most European countries, culling is forbidden by law.  I do not know of any breeder in the US who culls ridgeless nowadays.  Perhaps some of the old timers may still do it, but the younger generation does not.  However, if you are a breeder, it is a responsibility you have to accept that if you have ridgeless puppies you must be extremely careful where they are placed.  Since it costs the same to raise a ridgeless as it does a ridged dog the price difference is negligible, but sometimes prices are reduced if a particularly good home is found for one.  Admittedly they are at a greater risk for falling into the wrong hands which means that breeders must be vigilant and follow up on their ridgeless puppies.

Dogs have changed over the years.  Look at the Bull Mastiff - the old gamekeeper's dog.  The head has changed drastically for some reason and one wonders if in fact the Bullie could do the job today it was originally bred to do.  Old time Bullies did not have the squished in nose.  One of the things I have been told about them is that they cannot tolerate heat, perhaps because of their noses.   I think Ridgebacks here in the States have changed because people think of them as sight hounds and expect them to be more like the greyhound.  In other parts of the world they are NOT sight hounds and tend to be a more substantial and heavier type.  Classifying them as sight hounds to me was a disservice to the breed, but others disagree with me because they like to course and to course in ASFA the breed has to be a sighthound.  Do the more greyhoundy type dogs make better coursers?  I don't think so necessarily.  I have a heavier more substantial dog and the last time he ran with a Borzoi, he left the Borzoi standing.  Look at Pele.  He is a BIG dog and Koda's Femme Fatale is a big bitch also and an extremely successful courser.  I am sure there are others too that I don't know about.
Can you see those slightly built smallish Ridgebacks face down an elephant as the Ridgeback is doing in Kruger today?

Unfortunately, I do agree that dog shows have turned into a beauty contest.  No self respecting working standard poodle would be seen dead with bows on his head and pom poms on his hips.  That's absurd!!  And what about those really long coated dogs that sweep the floor with their hair.  These dogs had a purpose in life and I am quite sure the monks of Tibet didn't have the time to primp and groom their Lhasas!  Even the Peke needed to be able to walk!  I know a Puli breeder who as soon as her dog finishes in the showring, cuts off his cords and the dog then goes on to do agility and other activities without her having to worry about what is getting caught up in those cords.  I think we tend to forget these are DOGS and should be treated as dogs and not as some decoration that is only supposed to be admired from afar.  I would agree that a dog show SHOULD be somewhere where a dog's conformation is evaluated and breeding stock is given a stamp of approval.  But I have to ask, how many judges do you actually think know the breed intimately enough to be able to do this.  I cringe when a judge looks at my dog and asks for expression and wrinkles.  These dogs are supposed to be aloof with strangers and when a stranger bends down and wrinkles a candy wrapper in front of his nose, why should he be friendly and alert.  He knows there is nothing to eat in the candy wrapper and if there were he wouldn't be allowed to eat it anyway!!!  Too often the showy dog wins over the better conformation, simply because it is a show-off.

In the case of the Ridgeback, I find it unfortunate how a lot of judges really don't have a clue what the dog is supposed to do or even what he is supposed to look like!  One lady judge actually was heard to say they were supposed to kill lions!!

Caroline

Offline Keeper

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Re: What are your thoughts on Spinabifida?
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2010, 10:35 AM »
You have brought up some interesting points. 

First, the part about the Ridgeback was subsequently refuted by the RR Club of GB and the Kennel Club was invited to the World Congress in Ireland where the lady who has been studying the dermoid for many years was lecturing.  They were given the proverbial earful and subsequently a retraction was published by the BBC - of course in small print hidden in the pages of the news.....

Unfortunately, I do agree that dog shows have turned into a beauty contest...... I would agree that a dog show SHOULD be somewhere where a dog's conformation is evaluated and breeding stock is given a stamp of approval.  But I have to ask, how many judges do you actually think know the breed intimately enough to be able to do this.  I cringe when a judge looks at my dog and asks for expression and wrinkles.  These dogs are supposed to be aloof with strangers and when a stranger bends down and wrinkles a candy wrapper in front of his nose, why should he be friendly and alert.  He knows there is nothing to eat in the candy wrapper and if there were he wouldn't be allowed to eat it anyway!!!  Too often the showy dog wins over the better conformation, simply because it is a show-off.

In the case of the Ridgeback, I find it unfortunate how a lot of judges really don't have a clue what the dog is supposed to do or even what he is supposed to look like!  One lady judge actually was heard to say they were supposed to kill lions!!

Caroline

 :wave
extremely well state!  Agree
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Offline Daneo

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Re: What are your thoughts on Spinabifida?
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2010, 12:28 AM »
That was great thanks for that  ;D

Five more weeks till I get my pup!

Offline WAARHEID

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Re: What are your thoughts on Spinabifida?
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2010, 06:10 PM »
There are a good percentage of Ridgeback Breeders who claim that if you have Ridgeless you will never have Dermoid.  My over all breeding experience: 1 Dermoid - 5 Ridgeless. 
Sandra

Why would they claim this? I've had dermoid and ridgeless in the same litter, and I know many others that have had both in the same litter as well. To illustrate the absurdity of that idea further, there are other breeds which get occasionally get dermoids but do not have ridges.

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Re: What are your thoughts on Spinabifida?
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2010, 11:15 PM »
Why would they claim this? I've had dermoid and ridgeless in the same litter, and I know many others that have had both in the same litter as well. To illustrate the absurdity of that idea further, there are other breeds which get occasionally get dermoids but do not have ridges.

...I haven't got a clue.   ???  :-\
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